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| NerdMonday, October 18th 2004. | |
King of HyruleHell yeah
Posts: 4,519 Join Date: Jun 2002 |
The Legend of Zelda I know, this thread is sooo innovative, but try and bear with me, mmk?  There are many different theories regarding the Zelda timeline, so feel free to say your opinion on this topic, but I'm going to go on and try to explain how I think it goes. The Ultimate Timeline This seems to be the most common tactic used in order to try and "decode" the Zelda storyline. Each game is a distint and unique event that needs its own place on the timeline. What that order is, we have no idea. The Legend Theory In a nutshell, this theory states that The Legend of Zelda is a story that is told and re-told many times and is passed down orally from generation to generation, thus causing the many plotholes and tiny details that don't seem to add up when we try to form one ultimate timeline. Looking Past Fact and into the Legend "History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake." – James Joyce For anyone who has read anything by Joseph Campbell, that quote can have some meaning to you. The argument is that in the East, things tend to take on more symbolic meaning, while in the West we have concretized our thought process. If you tell a Christian that Jesus Christ did not really rise from the dead, you are striking them right at the heart, the core of their belief. The main difference between the Western and Eastern religions is that in the East, there is a psychological barrier that keeps you from obtaining the ultimate reality. A psychological process separated you from ‘God' in the beginning, and a psychological process will help you find your way back to God/duality/nirvana/whatever. In the West, it was the fall from grace, a historical event, that separated us from God (Garden of Eden), it was a historical event that helped show us the way back to God (Christ's crucifixion), and it will be a historical event that will ultimately reunite us with God (the day of Judgment). To go back and make a connection, it seems to me that there's a big difference in how people in the West go about explaining the Zelda timeline from people in the East (Nintendo). We have been trying to piece together the timeline into one coherent unit for who knows how long, while Nintendo comes out and says that they don't think of it that way. They see it as whenever evil rises (Ganon) over the land (Hyrule), a hero (Link) rises to save it. And they leave it at that. There is no further explanation because there needs to be no further explanation. This idea seems to transcend transcend both the Legend and "Ultimate timeline" theory, yet it is really a combination of both. The problem for us is that we dwell so much on the tiny details that we fail to see the big picture when it comes to assembling a "timeline". Does it matter if Ganon looks different in Wind Waker than in Ocarina of Time? Does it matter if Impa is fat in the Oracle games and not in Ocarina? Does it matter if Link's hair is purple in A Link to the Past and nowhere else? No. It doesn't matter at all. All of these characters, they are all just symbolic representations of the events/themes that occur. Link is the hero; he looks different in each game because he's not the same Link even though he is. Link, though he could be a distinct and unique Link in a certain game, is just the representation of the hero; he is an image we can connect to. This goes back to the Joyce quote, we're obsessed with the history, and it creates a nightmare for us because we can't peace any of it together in a convincing manner. Where the two theories meet "This is but one of the legends that the people speak." – The Wind Waker Now this line seems to back up the Legend theory quite a bit, and it does back it up, but we would need to clear some things up at the same time. It's obvious that not every game is a re-telling of the same story IF you look at them as distinct, unique events. The thing is, you have to look at it both ways. Each game IS a unique event if you look at what the specific details are in each game, yet when viewed on a broader scale, they are very much the same stories re-told. A legend is a myth, it's a story. If Wind Waker is but one of the legends, this obviously implies that there are many myths/stories. So, of course, each game/story is a distinct event. Yet when you look at myth on a broader scale, what is revealed is very much the same story, the same archetypes, the same themes are there. Whether you are in the Africa or in a tribe with the Plains Indians or reading the Bible or studying Buddhism, you are getting very much the same story. It all depends on how you interpret it. In the West, we take it literally, in the East, it is psychological. So what we get is not The Legend of Zelda, but A Legend of Zelda. If Zelda is a myth, and it seems that it most certainly is, then there are many stories and many events, but the important parts, the archetypes, these are all the same. So, since Zelda is mythology and mythology is archetypal, the Zelda series, although it may consist of many adventures being told by many different people, IS the same legend re-told. The Contemporary Setting What's happening now is strikingly similar to what happened in the past, except now it's in a contemporary setting. Nintendo are the ancient storytellers...the differences stem not only from that fact that the adventures are unique, but that Zelda's storytellers are different each time as well, from the director, to the script writers (Miyamoto by himself, Aonuma directing next, and now, Mitsuhiro Takano for this newest, realistic Zelda). WE are the people being told these stories...we are getting mythology without realizing it, being told that there's a Link, a Ganon, a Hyrule, all so that we can identify with the theme of Zelda, the archetypal battle of good vs. evil. The actual events may be unique, but the core, which is central to any myth, is the same. Thoughts? ___________________ 
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| NerdMonday, October 18th 2004. | |
kinopioPunk's Not Dead
Posts: 14,644 Join Date: Nov 2002 |
I used to have the same theory, then Nintendo somewhat ruined it by making Wind Waker such an obvious sequel to Ocarina of Time which itself was a prequel to A Link to the Past (the Seal War). In the end, I still think it doesn't matter much, but I wouldn't like their creativity to be obstucted by something as trivial as trying to patch the plot's leaks. ___________________ Now playing No More Heroes 2: Desperate Struggle Endless Ocean 2: Adventures of the Deep |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
Miyamoto gave a timeline before the release of TWW and the Oracle games. Here it is: Ocarina Majora Legend of Zelda Adventure of Link A Link to the Past (yes, it comes AFTER the original Zelda, censorship of the game's origial name "Triforce of the Gods" and a serious translation error by Dan Owsen lead to the belief the game takes place before the original) Link's Awakenings can come after any of these games. My guess is that the order for the entire series is: Ocarina Majora TWW Zelda Adventure of Link A Link to the Past Oracle games (Triforce is completed in ALTTP and the completed Triforce gives Link his quest so it must come after ALTTP) Link's Awakenings (says Link is returning from a trip of enlightenment. I think the oracle games is that trip) |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
kinopioPunk's Not Dead
Posts: 14,644 Join Date: Nov 2002 |
Fixed, I guess you meant Ocarina first. And the Oracle games have Gorons in them if I remember correctly, I don't think gorons exist anymore by WW's era and... What am I doing? See? that's the sh*t I was talking about: I don't care what the timeline is. I still share King of Hyrule's theory. |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
Oops yes. Changes saved And maybe the TriForce brought the Gorons back to life?? |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
kinopioPunk's Not Dead
Posts: 14,644 Join Date: Nov 2002 |
That would be the crystal dragon balls... |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
Code_LinkBeckinsale's Ho
Posts: 3,824 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Crimea, Tellius |
 Wii Love Kate-amary! |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
Code_LinkBeckinsale's Ho
Posts: 3,824 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Crimea, Tellius |
Oooooh, nice info nenned, thanks. By the way, I did see a couple of Gorons in Wind Waker. Survivors maybe?  ___________________ Wii Love Kate-amary! |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
BatistGod
Posts: 36,070 Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sainte Maxime |
all those pics are from wind waker        notice the window characters are?? ___________________ The Dragons are Gone! |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
kajiaisuOverkill/Undercover
Posts: 6,969 Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Well I love in a house in the Northeast U.S., playing my Nintendo DS. |
I wish the first game in the timeline was Links Awakening When his ship breaks apart during the storm and he floats to the island...it would really make you think....where did the original Link come from, who is he actually, and his past. That would of been a great beginning to the story. ___________________
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
KeazuGallant and Giddy
Posts: 18,247 Join Date: Jun 2003 |
There were Gorons in TWW, but they are now known as the "salesmen." Hey, am I the only one who finds it strange that the Zora evolved into the Rito when there was now so much water? ___________________
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
King of HyruleHell yeah
Posts: 4,519 Join Date: Jun 2002 |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
kinopioPunk's Not Dead
Posts: 14,644 Join Date: Nov 2002 |
You're right Keazu (and code_link), I totally forgot the salesmen were gorons. ___________________ Now playing No More Heroes 2: Desperate Struggle Endless Ocean 2: Adventures of the Deep |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
fhqwhgadshe hate me
Posts: 1,787 Join Date: Aug 2003 |
in the beginning of WW it talks about the legend of the hero doens't it. i just assumed that the link from one Zelda title wasn't the same fella from any other title really, but that Link is just an ideal kinda...i dunno how to say what i mean, but i think its basically what some others have already said, so i'll shut up |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
BatistGod
Posts: 36,070 Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sainte Maxime |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
Knightbladehoes got to eat too.
Posts: 1,764 Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago |
well I don't know how you will put WW before LOZ. but we may find out with Zelda 2005 ___________________ Pokemon team :      
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
kajiaisuOverkill/Undercover
Posts: 6,969 Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Well I love in a house in the Northeast U.S., playing my Nintendo DS. |
Does anyone agree about what I said about that it would be cool if LA came first? ___________________
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
kinopioPunk's Not Dead
Posts: 14,644 Join Date: Nov 2002 |
Then make it come first for yourself. Nintendo often contradict themselves with the Zelda timeline anyway, and in the end it doesn't really matters. Just make your own. |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
r50I'm gay for you!
Posts: 5,031 Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: North York, Ontario |
Hey you guys know so much about Zelda. Sweet. Can someone explain in LTTP for SNES, when Link's Uncle says something like "You have to save Zelda, she's your..." then drifts off, or something like that. What was he gonna say? She's your only chance at getting laid? ___________________  |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
KeazuGallant and Giddy
Posts: 18,247 Join Date: Jun 2003 |
No one knows what he was going to say. (I'm not even sure if Nintendo actually had anything in mind, it was just to keep us guessing.) ___________________
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
I think the GBA version says shes your sister, but I'm not sure (I have the SNES version) |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
kinopioPunk's Not Dead
Posts: 14,644 Join Date: Nov 2002 |
YOUR WHAT? |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
Euphemismunbeknownst
Posts: 1,756 Join Date: Oct 2004 |
This is a summary of a timeline I read at Zelda universe: -Ocorina of time- (original link leaves on quest) -Majoras mask (Link and zelda are reincarnated ) -Link to the past- ( Ganon uses Vaati to return) -Four swords.....adventures- (Hyrule submerged ) -Wind waker- (Hyrule resubmerged ) (sometime during the great sea period new link washes up on an island ) -Links awakening- ( Great deku trees planted in TWW or something else dries up the sea) ( Like Termina, Labarynna and holodrum are alternate realitys to Hyrule and affect the goings on in it ) -Oracle of seasons/ages- ( Original link saves termina, but due to the funky nature of time, he ends up years and years in the future. Returns right as Ganon makes another appearance) -Legend of zelda- (after defeating Ganon link settles down until our favorite baddie comes back again and wants links blood. also puts Zelda in a deep sleep.) -Adventure of link- |
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| NerdTuesday, October 19th 2004. | |
TapatioFryGuy
Posts: 940 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
I thought I heard at some point that WW was the final chapter. Anyway, I always thought of the games as retellings of the story of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. And just like oral traditions of our world the story changes each time it is told. And the side stories are just that, further tellings of links other adventures. With this sort of approach having WW as the last chapter because it says something about the legend of the hero of time. I never tried to place a timeline on the games, thats just too confusing. ___________________ 
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
Euphemismunbeknownst
Posts: 1,756 Join Date: Oct 2004 |
Another Question is where do The minish cap, and the "Mature" Zelda fit in...Many have speculated that Zelda 2005 is a dirct sequel to Oot, and Minish's link is the same design as the WW sooo....(But FSA used a link similar to the cel-shaded wonder, and was not related so I guess its too soon to presume. Although I have heard that the baddie in Minish cap is Vaati.... |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
kinopioPunk's Not Dead
Posts: 14,644 Join Date: Nov 2002 |
The Minish Cap's hero seems to be yet another Link. I won't spoil anything so I'll just say that he lives with his grandfather, who's the swordsmith of Hyrule. He and Zelda already know each other but it seems they never heard of Vaati at the beginning of the game. ___________________ Now playing No More Heroes 2: Desperate Struggle Endless Ocean 2: Adventures of the Deep |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
SkyWDino-Rhino
Posts: 328 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Finland |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
fhqwhgadshe hate me
Posts: 1,787 Join Date: Aug 2003 |
zelda is not links sister, or myamoto is TEH D!SGUST1NG! at the end of Zelda 2, adventures of Link, the curtain closes on them kissing. i know many of you may have never beaten that game, but that's what happens...(and i am sure they do it elsewhere in other zelda games) |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
Maybe he doesn't say sister. Come to think of it, I think I made a mistake. I beleive he says "Zelda is your destiny." Yes, I'm almost sure of it now. But again, I don't have the GBA version. I'm sure someone here must have it and confirm this, right? |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
JuiceThe Legend.
Posts: 7,909 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rhode Island |
Why does there have to be a Timeline? Its cool to see Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time interact, but what does it matter? Just let it be different adventures to play. ___________________ Currently Playing Dr. Mario Chrono Trigger  |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
There doesn't have to be a timeline. I just think there is one. |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
Code_LinkBeckinsale's Ho
Posts: 3,824 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Crimea, Tellius |
No, nenned. The GBA has a couple of different lines in the script, including a new one instead of the "Zelda is your..." line. This reaised an interesting thread on Gaming-Age, where people said that Capcom took the liberty of rewroting the entire Zelda history. It was only a couple of lines, though. ___________________ Wii Love Kate-amary! |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
Euphemismunbeknownst
Posts: 1,756 Join Date: Oct 2004 |
The Key to my timeline is that Link and Zelda are really not the same ppl in different games, reincarnation is an important factor in the Zelda worlld. But I concor with Nenned on the part that Zelda was put in a sleep state in Loz, (I forgot) And zelda is put to sleep numerous times soo..... |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
kinopioPunk's Not Dead
Posts: 14,644 Join Date: Nov 2002 |
Die |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
SkyWDino-Rhino
Posts: 328 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Finland |
Okay, here are the last lines of Link's uncle in the GBA version of ALttP (pal): "Link... you must rescue Zelda. Out people are fated to do so. But do not fall victim... to fate... Link... I shall always remember... our time... together..." So it's actually very different from the original. However, I see no line saying Zelda is your anything |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
kinopioPunk's Not Dead
Posts: 14,644 Join Date: Nov 2002 |
Thanks SkyW! I'd also like to point that the poor guy doesn't die, we get to see him alive in the ending sequence  .___________________ Now playing No More Heroes 2: Desperate Struggle Endless Ocean 2: Adventures of the Deep |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
SkyWDino-Rhino
Posts: 328 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Finland |
You are right, he can be seen in the ending. I always thought that it was Link's wish of the Triforce that made everything well again, including his uncle. Not sure if he was revived or just recovered from his injuries Hmm, now that I think about it, doesn't it say "Your uncle recovers" in the ending? Well, in any case I believe Link's wish for peace was the reason for recovery, dead uncle or seriously injured uncle edit: oh and your welcome kinopio |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
kinopioPunk's Not Dead
Posts: 14,644 Join Date: Nov 2002 |
Nice theory, but during the ending it says something like "Your convalescent uncle" (my approximate translation from french) and I think he's wearing a bandage. I always thought he was only injured. ___________________ Now playing No More Heroes 2: Desperate Struggle Endless Ocean 2: Adventures of the Deep |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
nennedIs she worth it?
Posts: 9,577 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston |
I have a save file in the SNES ALTTP right before the fight with Ganon. I'll beat it tonight and see what it says about the uncle. |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
King of HyruleHell yeah
Posts: 4,519 Join Date: Jun 2002 |
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| NerdWednesday, October 20th 2004. | |
Hero of swordsNerd
Posts: 87 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Tucson, Arizona |
If they did change the wise men into sages I never really noticed. I also remember it saying "Link you must save Zelda she is your...." I thought he was gonna say somthing like destiney or somthing around the lines of that. ___________________ "Credit Me With Some Intelligence. (If Not Just Credit Me.)" 
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