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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
XaviusSabor de Soledad
Posts: 32,290 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NM |
~40,000 troops deserted the fight in Iraq (Afghanistan??) Thousands of troops say they won't fightBy Ana Radelat Gannett News Service Swept up by a wave of patriotism after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Chris Magaoay joined the Marine Corps in November 2004. The newly married Magaoay thought a military career would allow him to continue his college education, help his country and set his life on the right path. Less than two years later, Magaoay became one of thousands of military deserters who have chosen a lifetime of exile or possible court-martial rather than fight in Iraq or Afghanistan. "It wasn't something I did on the spur of the moment," said Magaoay, a native of Maui, Hawaii. "It took me a long time to realize what was going on. The war is illegal." Magaoay said his disillusionment with the military began in boot camp in Twentynine Palms, Calif., where a superior officer joked about killing and mistreating Iraqis. When his unit was deployed to Iraq in March, Magaoay and his wife drove to Canada, joining a small group of deserters who are trying to win permission from the Canadian government to stay. "We're like a tight-knit family," Magaoay said. The Pentagon says deserters like Magaoay represent a tiny fraction of the nation's fighting forces. "The vast majority of soldiers who desert do so for personal, family or financial problems, not for political or conscientious objector purposes," said Lt. Col. Bryan Hilferty, a spokesman for the Army. Since 2000, about 40,000 troops from all branches of the military have deserted, the Pentagon says. More than half served in the Army. But the Army says numbers have decreased each year since the United States began its war on terror in Afghanistan. Those who help war resisters say desertion is more prevalent than the military has admitted. "They lied in Vietnam with the amount of opposition to the war and they're lying now," said Eric Seitz, an attorney who represents Army Lt. Ehren Watada, the first commissioned officer to refuse deployment to the war in Iraq. Watada is under military custody in Fort Lewis, Wash., because he refused to join his Stryker brigade when it was sent to Iraq last month. Watada said he doesn't object to war but considers the conflict in Iraq illegal. The Army has turned down his request to resign and plans to file charges against him. Critics of the Iraq war have demonstrated on the lieutenant's behalf. Conservative bloggers call him a traitor and opportunist. Joe Davis, spokesman for the Veterans of Foreign Wars, said deserters aren't traitors because they've done nothing to help America's enemies. But he rejects arguments that deserters have a moral right to refuse to fight wars they consider unjust. "None of us can choose our wars. They're always a political decision," Davis said. "They're letting their buddies down and hurting morale - and morale is everything on the battlefront." Because today's military is an all-volunteer force, troops seeking objector status must convince superior officers they've had an honest change of heart about the morality of war. The last time the U.S. military executed a deserter was World War II. But hundreds face court-martials and imprisonment every year. Members of the armed forces are considered absent without leave when they are unaccounted for. They become deserters after they've been AWOL for 30 days. A 2002 Army report says desertion is fairly constant but tends to worsen during wartime, when there's an increased need for troops and enlistment standards are more lax. They also say deserters tend to be less educated and more likely to have engaged in delinquent behavior than other troops. Army spokesman Hilferty said the Army doesn't try to find deserters. Instead, their names are given to civilian law enforcement officers who often nab them during routine traffic stops and turn them over to the military. Commanders then decide whether to rehabilitate or court-martial the alleged deserter. There's an incentive to rehabilitate because it costs the military an average of $38,000 to recruit and train a replacement. Jeffry House, an attorney in Toronto who represents Magaoay and other deserters, said there are about 200 deserters living in Canada. They have decided not to seek refugee status but instead are leading clandestine lives, he said. Like many of the people helping today's war resisters, House fled to Canada to avoid the Vietnam War. About 50,000 Americans sought legal residency in Canada during the Vietnam era. "You would apply at the border and if you didn't have a criminal record, you were in," House said. He said changes in Canadian law make it harder for resisters to flee north. Now, potential immigrants must apply for Canadian residency in their home countries. Resisters say that exposes them to U.S. prosecution. http://www.airforcetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1930387.php ___________ After the 3rd of 4th deployment I'd probably be thinking the same thing. I was surprised though to see the number this large. ___________________  I was young and confused and your mom didn't want me around no more. Now pass me dem damn collard greens! |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
CrusaderDe novo
Posts: 1,743 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Avon Lake, Ohio |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
XaviusSabor de Soledad
Posts: 32,290 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NM |
I don't understand your complaint. ___________________ I was young and confused and your mom didn't want me around no more. Now pass me dem damn collard greens! |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
CrusaderDe novo
Posts: 1,743 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Avon Lake, Ohio |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
Crunchyto jue
Posts: 7,246 Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: the "Employee of the Month" parking spot |
Good! Fight the man troops! |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
You join the military, especially in a branch like the Marines and Army, and then you decide not to fight? What pussies.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
XaviusSabor de Soledad
Posts: 32,290 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NM |
I was young and confused and your mom didn't want me around no more. Now pass me dem damn collard greens! |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
CrusaderDe novo
Posts: 1,743 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Avon Lake, Ohio |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
XaviusSabor de Soledad
Posts: 32,290 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NM |
I was young and confused and your mom didn't want me around no more. Now pass me dem damn collard greens! |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
Okay, I got it. Now I know why troops were deserting the military since 2000. It's because Bush was elected president. AM I RITE!? ___________________ The secular progressive movement(liberals)are ruining this country.  
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
ZGMF-X20AI'm a white Jamaican
Posts: 2,376 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Parkland Florida |
Interesting article. If I was drafted I would move to Canada or Jamaica since my parents are from those countries. ___________________  Brawl code: 4511-0151-6840 |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
XaviusSabor de Soledad
Posts: 32,290 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NM |
I was young and confused and your mom didn't want me around no more. Now pass me dem damn collard greens! |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
Back in 2000? Like what? ___________________ The secular progressive movement(liberals)are ruining this country.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
XaviusSabor de Soledad
Posts: 32,290 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NM |
Everything bad stems directly from Saddam! ___________________ I was young and confused and your mom didn't want me around no more. Now pass me dem damn collard greens! |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
unkwonMiss Round and Plump!
Posts: 5,145 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Texas |
As long as I'm allowed to strap myself with bombs and go all at it on my enemies for the army, draft me in! The best way of suicide is killing the enemy around ya while you explode!!! I would'nt mind being drafted as long as die the most rememberable death. "AAGGGGHHHHHH yourself!" ___________________ Now if only I could change to Mr Fat instead of Miss round and plump. |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
CrusaderDe novo
Posts: 1,743 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Avon Lake, Ohio |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
XaviusSabor de Soledad
Posts: 32,290 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NM |
There is no proof that it wasn't caused by bad cafeteria food. Maybe that's the real story here? Or maybe we could just use some common sense and discuss the real issue here rather than the thread title. Or, perhaps you could make your own thread title and I will replace it because that's the kind of person I am?* * beware I will probably play with your suggestion in a humorous way ___________________ I was young and confused and your mom didn't want me around no more. Now pass me dem damn collard greens! |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
CrusaderDe novo
Posts: 1,743 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Avon Lake, Ohio |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
XaviusSabor de Soledad
Posts: 32,290 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NM |
I was young and confused and your mom didn't want me around no more. Now pass me dem damn collard greens! |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
CrusaderDe novo
Posts: 1,743 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Avon Lake, Ohio |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AdvanceLike the Groundhog Phil.
Posts: 28,937 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Washington, D.C. |
You have to be one pathetic piece of pussy-ass scum to join the Armed Forces and then head for the hills when you're asked to have to do something you knew full well you'd be asked to do when you signed up. It's positively insane to suggest these people are anything less than the most cowardly of cowards. ___________________ I can kill you whenever I damn well please. But not today.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
Here's the oath:
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
XaviusSabor de Soledad
Posts: 32,290 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NM |
So the lesson here is: Don't sign up if you dont' want to go to war. Edit:  5 coward/traitors on n-philes. Keep voting  ___________________ I was young and confused and your mom didn't want me around no more. Now pass me dem damn collard greens! |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
I don't think the second choice is fair. Saying the war is illegal is moot. ___________________ The secular progressive movement(liberals)are ruining this country.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
XaviusSabor de Soledad
Posts: 32,290 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NM |
I think you taking the poll seriously is funny ___________________ I was young and confused and your mom didn't want me around no more. Now pass me dem damn collard greens! |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
The poll, I take seriously, because pretty much the choices are legitimate. Your replies to this thread, no. ___________________ The secular progressive movement(liberals)are ruining this country.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
Knight of CydoniaThe Real Lakitu
Posts: 4,060 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Belgium |
Sorry Xavius, but for once I actually have to side with Assman and Crusader here, it's not up to a soldier to judge to reasons or the cause of the war he's fighting, he should obey his orders or face the consequences of desertion. Personally I don't think this war was completely justified however, certainly the reasons that we're presented in the beginning weren't. Though again I'm not in a position to judge either (at least not directly), my country wisely chose not to participate in this war and even oppose the reasons behind it, for which I am happy. Obviously America, who took the initiative, and several other countries however did chose for this war. In the end it should be those countries governments and leaders who should be held accountable for the reasons behind and the outcome of this war. In the first place by their own people, and in the second place by other nations on international levels such as the U.N. The latter already decided that this war wasn't justified, and the former where divided, governments in countries like Spain and Italy and several other's whose governments chose to support this war, the leading political parties we're punished (granted, it's highly unlikely that the respective elections we're solely decided upon the Iraq war, but it's fair to suppose it has played a part in them) and the new governments chose to retreat their troops. America however chose to support this war by re-electing Bush in 2004, perhaps the public opinion may have turned against it by now, as shown by recent polls, but in the end, governments aren't formed based on polls, but on elections, and from what I understand of the matter, America has got a chance to voice their opinion again in november, when they can elect a new parliament/congress. Circumstances would be different if the soldiers in this case we're drafted instead of people who actually signed up, which of course would never happen in a case like this, the republicans wouldn't be able to sell it to the richer Americans that their children would have to fight the "terrorists" too... ___________________
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
CrusaderDe novo
Posts: 1,743 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Avon Lake, Ohio |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
Game GuruGolden f*cking Sun!
Posts: 6,471 Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: L.A., Tuskegee, AL or Albany, GA depending on time of year. |
Investors Business Daily on Obama "death panel":
"People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless." Needless to say, Hawking, who is recognized as one of the great theoretical physicists of the 20th and 21st century, was born in the UK and has lived his entire life there. |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AdvanceLike the Groundhog Phil.
Posts: 28,937 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Washington, D.C. |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
The whole world thought Saddam had WMDs, and It was apart of some U.N. resolution. I'll try and dig it up, because I remember mentioning it in a thread. ___________________ The secular progressive movement(liberals)are ruining this country.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
Caster13Meow =^_^=
Posts: 4,808 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
Obviously, you know nothing about the military. There are other jobs you can do in the military that doesn't require you to pick up a gun and fight. Also, you learn valuable job skills in the military that will surely help you out in the civilian world. Top that off with a degree, and you'll easily get a job, while some poor guy who just graduated with a degree, and has no skills whatsoever has to offer to the world will end up having a hard time finding a job. ___________________ The secular progressive movement(liberals)are ruining this country.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
CrusaderDe novo
Posts: 1,743 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Avon Lake, Ohio |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
In the Army or Marines, you could do jobs Like: Administrative Support Arts and Media Computers/Technology Construction/Engineering Intelligence Legal/Law Enforcement Mechanics Medical & Emergency Transportation/Aviation ___________________ The secular progressive movement(liberals)are ruining this country.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
CrusaderDe novo
Posts: 1,743 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Avon Lake, Ohio |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
Depends on what field you want to enter in intelligence. You could be working indoors reading maps and translating documents(humintel), or you could be out in the field. With mechanics, you could be working on vehicles, planes, helicopters on bases in Iraq. That doesn't mean you're engaged in battles,and as you put it, "willing to kill people". As for no gurantees of getting those jobs, just choose three jobs out of the list I provided and you're guranteed to get one of them. ___________________ The secular progressive movement(liberals)are ruining this country.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
Game GuruGolden f*cking Sun!
Posts: 6,471 Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: L.A., Tuskegee, AL or Albany, GA depending on time of year. |
Investors Business Daily on Obama "death panel":
"People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless." Needless to say, Hawking, who is recognized as one of the great theoretical physicists of the 20th and 21st century, was born in the UK and has lived his entire life there. |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
Uh, no. You're dead wrong. ___________________ The secular progressive movement(liberals)are ruining this country.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
Game GuruGolden f*cking Sun!
Posts: 6,471 Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: L.A., Tuskegee, AL or Albany, GA depending on time of year. |
Investors Business Daily on Obama "death panel":
"People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless." Needless to say, Hawking, who is recognized as one of the great theoretical physicists of the 20th and 21st century, was born in the UK and has lived his entire life there. |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
What does raising your rank have to do with being in high school and having a certain skill in mechanics will have the military to use in the field of mechanics? Seriously, think before you say something, Game Guru. Everyone has to take a test called the ASVAB(Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery ). There are nine sections in an ASVAB test: General Science (GS) Arithmetic Reasoning (AR) Word Knowledge (WK) Paragraph Comprehension (PC) Mathematics Knowledge (MK) Electronics Information (EI) Auto & Shop (AS) Mechanical Comprehension (MC) Assembling Objects (AO) Depending on your overall score, it'll determine which area of the branch you qualify to enter. Then, certain jobs in the military require you to score a certain number of points , like say in the Air Force, I want to be a cop. I have to score a 35 under "General"(for AF, it's M A G E). Getting a job in the military has nothing to do with high school or skills in certain areas. I could have skills in mechanics, but that doesn't mean I'll get a job in mechanics, because what if I didn't score high enough to get the job? Think, Game Guru. ___________________ The secular progressive movement(liberals)are ruining this country.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
Game GuruGolden f*cking Sun!
Posts: 6,471 Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: L.A., Tuskegee, AL or Albany, GA depending on time of year. |
Investors Business Daily on Obama "death panel":
"People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless." Needless to say, Hawking, who is recognized as one of the great theoretical physicists of the 20th and 21st century, was born in the UK and has lived his entire life there. |
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
Yeah, half right as in totally going off topic. Being in the scouts or having a certain number of college credits will bump your rank. For me, I was going to be an E-3, since I had 60 credits. ___________________ The secular progressive movement(liberals)are ruining this country.
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| NerdMonday, August 7th 2006. | |
Caster13Meow =^_^=
Posts: 4,808 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada |
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| NerdTuesday, August 8th 2006. | |
Knight of CydoniaThe Real Lakitu
Posts: 4,060 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Belgium |
The U.N. was just an example of an international level, though approval throught the U.N. Security Council would have been nice, it's far from necessary, since it's workings are outdated, and the U.N. has repeatedly failed in the past already, and even today (you're probably right on Sudan today, also Israel for one is a clear failure of the U.N.). I just mentioned the U.N. as an example of an international level. Do you think America could have carried out this war if say [unrealistically] China would have actively opposed it, by threatening with a war against the U.S.?
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| NerdTuesday, August 8th 2006. | |
IrisHighly, I say
Posts: 5,103 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ireland |
I'd be out of there before I even got to Iraq, since I could just give up American citizenship when the drafting started. I wouldn't like it since that would be closing the option to work there later in life, but I also wouldn't risk my life for someone else's cause.
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| NerdTuesday, August 8th 2006. | |
Knight of CydoniaThe Real Lakitu
Posts: 4,060 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Belgium |
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| NerdTuesday, August 8th 2006. | |
AssmanCTU agent
Posts: 8,945 Join Date: Jun 2004 |
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| NerdTuesday, August 8th 2006. | |
Caster13Meow =^_^=
Posts: 4,808 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada |
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