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johnlucas

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Future of Next-Generation of Gaming

(I thought I posted this here long ago but I look back on my history & I forgot to put it down so let me share this with you all now)

I made the following 'editorial' of sorts last year (November 5, 2005) on an article from Joystiq.com after reading the back & forth on the comment board about people's predictions on the industry.
Though a Nintendo supporter to the end I wanted to lay out fairly & even-handedly exactly WHAT the reasons were for the success & failures of the companies in gaming as a whole using the knowledge I had of the passing generation & the upcoming generation.

I then shortly took this argument to the newsgroups for archival preservation. (web forums disappear but newsgroup archives are forever)
Since it dealt with all the companies I cross-posted it to the following newsgroups for full feedback & discussion:
rec.games.video.nintendo, alt.games.video.nintendo.gamecube, rec.games.video.sony, alt.games.video.sony-playstation2, microsoft.public.xbox, alt.games.video.xbox

(Click the link to see original posting & follow-up discussion from other posters)
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.nintendo/browse_thread/thread/b7d7bd99319ce61f/0705ce1ecf6a257a?#0705ce1ecf6a257a

This essay was made at the time when the Wii was still called Revolution (boy how that name suddenly seems so old-fashioned now) & before the X-Box 360 was released.
AND despite my thoroughness in capturing the vibe of the scene I didn't factor in Sony's role in undoing itself only capturing the reality that Sony & Microsoft decide the fates of each other.
One small mistake but I think you'll like what I've said here.
(and maybe i could add more later in an update due to recent events)

Enjoy, fans.
~~~~~~~

Just need to add in my fifth of a dime right quick.
For all gameplayers:

The Future of the Next-Generation of Gaming.

Here's the skinny folks.

Sony Playstation 3

STRENGTHS
•The 'Sony' brandname.
high familiarity because of a diverse array of products from music players, CD's, TV's to batteries in everything from supermarkets to pharmacies to department stores.

•Last Generation's Marketshare Champion.
heads into next generation to continue where they left off with the PS2 & its massive volume of games.

•Media Center.
Sony continues trying to expand the experience of gaming adding in mediaplaying tools for music, movies, etc. & tries to get the jump on the tech trends by being the first with Blu-Ray technology. Not to mention HD capabilities.

•3rd Party Strength.
what made the PS1 champion & subsequently the PS2, Sony hopes for this crucial component to continue for the PS3. Those powerhouse franchises from Square, Capcom & the like as well as other various 3rd party offerings are what make Playstation what it is today.

WEAKNESSES
•What's New?
there's a ho-hum feeling in the gaming audience lately & this feeling will increase over the coming years. Each previous generation brought something drastically different to the table but the spark is starting to fizzle out.
A crash is on the horizon. If PS3 seems like nothing more than a mere update to the PS2, then that spells long term trouble for Sony & any hopes for a PS4.

•High Cost.
once you go much over $200 for a game system people get chafed. With high gas prices & a bumbling economy a high cost for entertainment may seem superfluous & some buyers may ignore the system. there are some who may say "I can go to a 'massage parlor' for $400!"-[to keep it clean]

•Gambling On A Tech Format Standard.
memories of the Betamax are still fresh & Sony's pull for Blu-Ray is in a 50/50 chance for gain or fail. If adopted as standard, Sony gets the headstart. If NOT adopted, Sony's stuck with a collector's item.

•King Of The Hill Syndrome.
once you're on top there's nowhere to go but down. You can either maintain your acme or tumble down the slopes to the anxious competition. Sony has to maintain their position and with X-Box 360 & Nintendo Revolution this may not be possible.

Microsoft X-Box 360

STRENGTHS
•Online Capability.
X-Box Live helped create a distinct identity apart from Playstation that has given X-Box as edge. This edge will grow in the next generation as X-Box focuses more on the service.

•First Out The Gate.
X-Box 360 gets to marinate in the minds of gamers over the holidays & in the first parts of 2006 giving it the 'golden one & only' status. This will help it increase its marketshare edge against Playstation.

•Name.
X-BOX. Simplistic short abrupt 'X-otic' name makes it memorable in the minds of new potential gamers who've never played a game system before.
Playstation was a strong name that denoted 'the place, the location where games are played' [a universal feel]. But it has too many syllables.
The letter "X" is a letter used for many things & in many sayings. The word "Box" has easy common familiarity {sandbox, boxing, mailbox, cardboard box}.
The "x" in "box" takes you back to the "X" at the beginning of the name. And like the letters "Q" & "Z", "X" has an exotic flavor in the English language due to its limited use. The brandname was meant to be highly memorable to stick in buyers' heads.

•Has Something To Prove.
Microsoft wants their gamesystem to take over Sony's market this generation. They seek to siphon away Sony's audience to theirs. To do this they seek to make themselves distinct from Sony so people will have a reason for buying their offering.
This results in the lauding of their power & system capabilities as well as aggresive marketing tactics. High ambition will serve them well as they continue their erosion of Sony's market dominance.

WEAKNESSES
•Identity.
X-Box STILL has problems when it comes creating a distinction between them & Sony when many games on their system are available on Playstation 2. If this trend continues X-Box 360 will end up looking like a 5th wheel in the long run. With the strength of the Halo franchise & Rare on their team as well as their strong online they have created some differences but it's not enough. X-Box will have to get more exclusivity in the gaming experience if it hopes to erode Sony.

•Bill Gates-A-Phobia.
some people refuse to trust Microsoft for fear of monopoly & all that comes with it. No matter WHAT Microsoft is offering good or bad there are some who refuse to pay tribute to the world's richest man. When you see takes like "Micro$oft" & "M$" there's a big wall of distrust that could hinder X-Box 360's plans.

•High Cost.
once again when you go over $200 for a gamesystem you're pushing it. Yeah some will pony up but others will find it hard to part with those hard earned dollars for a gamesystem regardless of what you purport it to be.
There are some who say "a woman better pop out of the gameslot for THAT price!"

•First Out The Gate.
yes this is also a weakness. Going first may lead you to being one-upped by the competition who took longer to display their goods. Short-term win, long-term loss. X-Box 360 better hope their technology stands the test of time or either that no one will care if it HAS been one-upped.

•What's New?
once again like Sony but to a lesser extent. Still X-Box 360 has to convince the gaming public what's REALLY so special about what you're offering me? Graphics are not the key to success this time around.
Photorealism is practically realized & the gamesystems of the future will eventually seem like nothing more than mere updates to the system they just had. Eventually that will wear a good portion of the gaming public down who may wander elsewhere with their entertainment dollars. If the NEXT-next gen X-Box 360-Spherical is to come about they have to address this problem soon.

Nintendo Revolution

STRENGTHS
•Heritage/History.
Nintendo will ALWAYS have its heritage to count on. The gaming masterpieces they put out over the decades have shaped the world of gaming time & time again. People have grown up with them & that is a substantial component of their success. Even for those who left the Nintendo house there's a soft spot in people's hearts for this company. This will pan out with gold in Nintendo's retro gaming smorgasbord.

•1st Party Power
unlike the other companies Nintendo is the only true one who can put out its OWN in-house games & make not only hits but classics with. And not just a few at that. That ability to create new franchises & superstars serves this company very well. The mascot power is not to be overlooked. Many a Happy Meal was sold due to an overgrown red-headed clown's face.

•Innovators/Standard Makers.
many of the standards we see in the current gaming experience originated with Nintendo. Their ability to keep it fresh is what makes them truly the driving force behind this industry whether or not they are the market champion. With the Revolution they stand to do it once again by flipping the script on how games are played with the new Revolution controller.
More than any other entertainment field gaming must stay innovative to survive.

•Underdog/Dark Horse.
the one-time dominator of the industry is now seen as an also-ran by many. Many skip mentioning them as a factor in the next-generation because they assume it's past last call for Nintendo. But they may have assumed wrong.
Unlike the other companies Nintendo even in its reduced space in the market still stays comfortably in the black. Being overlooked has its advantages. It allows you to formulate strategies to upset your competitors away from the glare of the spotlight. For a company to lose so much position on marketshare but continue to profit denotes some kind of "coiled-snakes-in-the-peanut-brittle jar type of surprise that may spring out unexpectedly shocking everyone.

•Low Cost.
Nintendo's ability to create high-quality tech at low prices will help them tremendously in this Bushconomy where people chafe at the gas tanks & weaker jobs. As a matter of fact these two things may work together as people opt to stay home more to avoid using the car which will result in people using their limited funds for cheap-priced gaming entertainment.

•FREE Online Capablities.
if Nintendo pulls off a quality online service & makes it FREE to use they have usurped X-Box 360's advantage. X-Box Live has a fee. They would have to have more exclusive games to make it worth the while. Nintendo has exclusive games but with the word FREE you can't be beat! And in the process X-Box 360's distinction erodes THIS time in the favor of Nintendo.

WEAKNESSES
•Volume/3rd Party Weakness.
this has been Nintendo's problem since the Nintendo 64. With the virtual exodus of the 3rd party of those times Nintendo has not quite recovered.
Although their 1st party titles are always knockouts, games take longer to produce than in decades past. This means you need 3rd party gamemakers to fill in the gaps between homemade releases so heavy-collecting gamers won't get bored.

•Image.
Nintendo's strategy of being the "family-based" system has its good points but has left Nintendo labeled "the kiddie system". Even though games are for children & the child-at-heart Nintendo has to at least alter aspects of this image. Not by changing their marketing demographics, no, but by broadening the array of games they have available to entice the buyers who discounted them to give them another chance.

•Luddites.
innovations have their drawbacks. There are some afraid of the unknown. Nintendo's remote-like controller may be too out there for some used to the way things are now. As a result some may flat out refuse to try out the innovation on sight-alone. If too much of the gaming public shares this mindset, the limb Nintendo went out on may snap.

•No Media Center.
although this is a big factor of why Nintendo's offering will be cheaper than the others, not having all those little extra bells & whistles will cause some used to what Playstation & X-Box have been putting forth to ignore Nintendo. It's not a major disadvantage but there are some who DO want all of those features & Nintendo simply won't have them. Time will tell if the public cares more about the meat & potatoes of gaming or about the dressing of ambience.

MY PREDICTIONS:
Nintendo (believe it or not) will eventually come out on top this
generation. They offer a totally new experience that will be sure to pull in not just PS gamers & X-Box gamers but people who have never fathomed TOUCHING a game.

They will pull in new buyers & create gamers on the spot.
They will pull in more FEMALES to the gaming world than anyone else will.
They will pull in different age groups & cement their standing & philosophy as the family-friendly/for-all-ages company.
They will finally secure the 3rd party support in the process (old AND new) which will leave the other 2 companies struggling as they have little to offer from themselves alone.

1st party is ALWAYS important to keep around because 3rd party shifts. They will continue to flex their franchise power as they do every generation. All of the strategies put together in this 10-year period as the underdog will finally pay off in increased marketshare.

What happens between Sony PS3 & MS X-Box 360 depends on X-Box. Sony will lose marketshare DEFINITELY this time around. They will be strong & they are not pushovers but they will lose some of that dominance this time. Their ultimate outcome depends on how much X-Box can siphon away their customers.
I see it happening already. I got a friend who bought PS1 & PS2 and he now says he wants an X-Box 360.

If X-Box 360 succeeds in vampiring Sony's base X-Box becomes the #2 in contest with Nintendo & Sony is left 3rd.
X-Box will pick up the audience who are not impressed with Nintendo's offering for whatever reason.

If X-Box 360 DOESN'T succeed in BramStoker's Dracula-ing then X-Box is on the verge of being out of the biz & Sony is in contest with Nintendo taking the people who don't like what Nintendo is selling.

X-Box has to make its mark or it's over. Sony's in a more comfortable position than X-Box & that's why X-Box has to work harder. Expect to see some hardcore console wars between X-Box & PS3 especially. X-Box will lead with the venom because they are the hungriest.

Nintendo's going nowhere until they feel like it.
They are not Sega.
They have the art AND the business sense.

Hope this puts it in perspective.
Thanks for reading.

John Lucas

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johnlucas

They are not Sega.
They have the art AND the business sense.

qf...BANNED!
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Pojo

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I don't see a hyphen between the "x" and the "b". Do you see a hyphen? No.

This bothers Pojo, johnlucas.

Oh, and I did read what you had to say. What's up with the lame "sexual" jokes following the pricing issue for the 360 and PS3? You kind of killed it. :
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johnlucas

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Pojo
I don't see a hyphen between the "x" and the "b". Do you see a hyphen? No.

This bothers Pojo, johnlucas.

Oh, and I did read what you had to say. What's up with the lame "sexual" jokes following the pricing issue for the 360 and PS3? You kind of killed it. :

It's just humor, man. I DO have a feeling some gamers thought those exact words when they heard about the high prices, though.

Sorry you didn't appreciate my hyphen.
It's what I always thought it was spelled as.
For web-adresses it's understandable to leave it out but I always figured that the pronunciation of the name naturally lent it to that spelling.

Else instead of X-Box [Ex-Box] we'd get XBox [Gzbox].
Tomayto, tomahto...

John Lucas

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This is what i support

but the Wii looks good too! Uh-oh

Game Guru

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Great post. Mucho cookies for you. Pretty much summed up the whole thing. This should become "the official Next gen console war thread" or something.

I too predict that Nintendo will come out on top in this. Why? In business as with women, it's always the meek, who eventually get the girl. The pimps and players may get some for awhile, but it's always the quiet guys who win in the end. The same is true in business. Look at Apple. Nintendo will own this generation because they're expanding the market. They've already secured the majority of casual and hardcore gamers alike with their stunning showing at E3 (look no further than Wii60.com for evidence), but unlike the 360 (which will share space with Nintendo in the traditional gamer space), Nintendo's truly expanding the market. Nintendo will have gamers in it's corner, as well as non-gamers. The 360 will only have gamers.

Sony? They comitted suicide with that price. Even Famitsu polls show bad news is down the road for the system. I'm predicting Gamecube level sales for them. Perhaps worse (Sega Saturn level sales?), but hey, brand recognition does get you something.

Edit: Your post was so good, I posted it at N-sider.com as well, it should get a much more intelligent discussion there...not that we aren't capable of it at N-philes, but....
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Needless to say, Hawking, who is recognized as one of the great theoretical physicists of the 20th and 21st century, was born in the UK and has lived his entire life there.

Assman

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there's a ho-hum feeling in the gaming audience lately & this feeling will increase over the coming years. Each previous generation brought something drastically different to the table but the spark is starting to fizzle out.
A crash is on the horizon. If PS3 seems like nothing more than a mere update to the PS2, then that spells long term trouble for Sony & any hopes for a PS4.

WOW. I guess you really didn't do any research in this area. Improved physics has been one of the major promises of the next-generation game experience, and this is what Sony has been stressing a lot lately. Vehicles, boxes, and the way how your clothes will move realisticly. Look at Motorstorm. Deformable tracks that will change the gameplay or the Car demo from the GDC(Eight Days?). The new Indiana Jones game will incorporate NaturalMotion's Euphoria. It's a next generation physics and animation system that will surely change the way how A.l. react in games. I just received my new issue of Game Informer, and some of things the Ubi Montreal is doing with Assassin's Creed will blow your mind.

Sony? They comitted suicide with that price. Even Famitsu polls show bad news is down the road for the system. I'm predicting Gamecube level sales for them. Perhaps worse (Sega Saturn level sales?), but hey, brand recognition does get you something.

Maybe in Japan. As far as Europe goes, it's a lock in for Sony. The U.S.? I'm not sure. As I've said before, It'll come down to Xbox360 or PS3.
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Game Guru

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Assman
WOW. I guess you really didn't do any research in this area. Improved physics has been one of the major promises of the next-generation game experience, and this is what Sony has been stressing a lot lately. Vehicles, boxes, and the way how your clothes will move realisticly. Look at Motorstorm.

No offense, but you've got to be fucking kidding me. Physics are great, but it's not as if Xbox 360 can't handle physics. Sure, the graphics may take a hit when they have physics in there, but the 360 doesn't cost $600 either. Not to mention even the Wii can hande some pretty good physics. Look at Red Steel and ExciteTruck. If you think PS3 is going to get anywhere by touting physics and the way some stupid CLOTHES MOVE. You're kidding yourself.
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PS3's difference will be in the CPU, things that rely on the CPU. The difference is also wider than simple floating point figures would suggest, for the kinds of things it'll be doing mostly, and I think that shows in the GDC demos. The stuff shown there was a lot more sophisticated in terms of physics and simulation than stuff we've seen on 360 so far. Wii's physics engine is nothing compared to PS3s. It makes it look like child's play.

Sure, 360 can easily handle Ageia, but only the PS3 and PC will be able to use all the engines features.

Also, I like how you only use "clothes" when talking about PS3's physics. lol

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/702/702389p1.html
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Rocksteady

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Where's Sony's online plan as a strength? I guarentee their service is better the Nintendo's, and it's free. FREE.

Noukon

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Rocksteady
Where's Sony's online plan as a strength? I guarentee their service is better the Nintendo's, and it's free. FREE.

Well, free, inclusive of the fact that you're paying $500+ for the console to take advantage of it.

Assman

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Using revolutionary AI, biomechanics techniques and Dynamic Motion Synthesis, endorphin allows you to create high-quality character motions in real-time will create a new experience in gaming.

Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdImUIhbG9E

When gamers will be able to pull those moves off, they will say "That's amazing! I've never seen anything like that before!" Football fans will enjoy the A.l. and how they react when being tackled, running, juking, etc. Fighting fans will enjoy the realism of punches/kicks, and the way how they react when falling, or being thrown through a wall.
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Game Guru

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Assman
PS3's difference will be in the CPU, things that rely on the CPU. The difference is also wider than simple floating point figures would suggest, for the kinds of things it'll be doing mostly, and I think that shows in the GDC demos. The stuff shown there was a lot more sophisticated in terms of physics and simulation than stuff we've seen on 360 so far. Wii's physics engine is nothing compared to PS3s. It makes it look like child's play.

See, the point is, I don't think gamers really care if the building is blowing up with realistic physics or not. The point is that is it should look cool. As long as it looks cool, that's all I think most people care about.

Physics in racing games are already pretty much perfected (I've played GT4 and I see no reason to go beyond that), the only thing that needs to be improved are terrain deformations, which I'm sure the 360 can handle, if the Wii can handle them on Excitetruck.

As for things such as shrapnel and the like flying around in war games, this can be faked easily (I'm looking directly at that Indiana Jones thing you showed me), and you don't really need to use true physics for such things (and much of it is just pointless, again, I'm looking at Indiana Jones). Like I said, Red Steel fakes such things pretty well. The 360 should be able to fake a ton of stuff if the Wii can.

EDIT: Hmm, thanks for the video, now I can see how it could be faked.

Engineers often say the more complicated design is inferior to the more simple one.
That's not to say they did a bad job, but it just takes up processing power for no legitimate reason if there calculating physics on every bone structure in the models. Take the helicopter ride clip for example. Is there really any reason to have every bone use physics in the game? Not really. All you'd need to do is apply physics to the hands, and knees. Then program the computer to move the torso in relation to these two objects. Not to mention the scene could simply be animated by a computer, using the physics processor seen here, and then dumped into the game. This goes for the fights as well.

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Blueblur1

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Physics? Are you retarded? The general gaming public doesn't give a **** about physics. Very few people on this forum care about physics. Physics isn't going to decide anything this generation.

Assman

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I've edited my post, and included a youtube video of what Euphoria is capable. Either way, you're still wrong. Like I said when I edited my post, gamers who enjoy different genres will truly enjoy what next gen physics and animation will provide, be it sports or fighting.

Physics? Are you retarded? The general gaming public doesn't give a **** about physics. Very few people on this forum care about physics. Physics isn't going to decide anything this generation.

Obviously, you're ignorant when it comes to this topic, but then again, nobody cares for your "valued" input.
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Robjomak

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Assman you're like the ONLY ONE WHO EVER HYPES PHYSICS!

How many genres does it actually matter in? Most of the time it's eye candy at best! Woo its cool looking but it doesn't justify a $600 console. ****, like Keazu said it would probably have to actually cure cancer for that.

Oh and john, I'd mostly say your predictions and statements were right on the mark, the one thing I'd say that has changed since the time of writing would be the Sony-Microsoft situation. Strange as it may sound to some, I'd say Xbox is in the comfortable position right now. The American market is fickle, and they saw Xbox 360 first. I think PS3 may have an uphill battle in America with Microsoft, and a quickly-lost even battle with Nintendo in Japan.

Where's Sony's online plan as a strength? I guarentee their service is better the Nintendo's, and it's free. FREE.

Okay, friends codes suck, we get it. Breathe, man.

And you know it will probably suck more just the same. This is Sony we're talking about. If they offer anything free its just crippleware to get you to get the paid "decent" (by comparison) service.

Assman

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Eh, we'll see. It'll make games more immersive.
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Assman

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I better end this debate. I'm being outnumbered. lol

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Rocksteady

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As always.

Blueblur1

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Robjomak
Assman you're like the ONLY ONE WHO EVER HYPES PHYSICS!

lol Sorry about the retarded comment, but physics only matters to hardcore gamers... er, maybe hardcore hardcore gamers. And the casual gamers outnumber the hardcore easily.

Assman

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I don't know about that, but whatever makes you sleep better at night.
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Assman

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Sorry about the retarded comment, but physics only matters to hardcore gamers... er, maybe hardcore hardcore gamers. And the casual gamers outnumber the hardcore easily.

That is true, as sad as it may be. There are a lot of people still excited, though. Just visit sites, like AVSforum, GAF, B3D. Sigh*, but yeah. Hardcore only.
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Knight of Cydonia

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Well, I'm a Nintendo-fan mostly, but if the PS3 will be able to really create those physics they're promissing, than I will be impressed to say the least, but that doesn't mean I will pay €600 just for one console... hell I'd rather invest that money in a pc, It may cost me a bit more for the same specs (mainly since Sony is actually still losing $300 on each PS3 they sell, and I fear they won't have much room for cheapening their productions anytime soon since they're using some fairly new technologies) but a pc can be used for many other things than gaming too, and even though Sony keeps focussing on the "multimedia"-capabilities of their console, it still remains a console, If I want to play mp3's or watch movies I'll use my stereo and dvd-installation respectively thanks... to be frank, that kind of stuff actually turns me off buying the console, 'cause just like in the psp's case, I fear the focus on multimedia-aspects is just an excuse to hide the weak line-up in games... the PS3 may have MGS4 and FFXIII, or Assassin's Creed even, but that would be it, where-as I can immediately think of five to six Wii games I'd like to own. Plus I don't exactly see a PS3 running CAD-programs or math-related software etc. things I do need ...

And to come back on the PS3's "amazing" physics, well I doubt that, in the beginning at least, we won't see that much physics the XBox360 won't be able to handle. The PS3 may have better physics, but if the hefty price it comes at can't be overcome, the PS3 will just fall in the gap between the comming generation (or "this" generation, since the XBox360 is already here) and the generation following that.

Majin-Link δ Hey look I'm starting to needlessly sign my posts too...
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Assman

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At least one person is excited, and if I recall, there were a lot of positive comments over at the Wii Board when Havok will be implemented in Wii. Now, does it justify a $500 purchase? I don't think so.
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Assman
At least one person is excited, and if I recall, there were a lot of positive comments over at the Wii Board when Havok will be implemented in Wii. Now, does it justify a $500 purchase? I don't think so.

Fortunately, Euphoria animation technology will function on the 360, as well.

Utaro

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Ill get a PS3 when the price goes down. I do think Nintendo and Sony will battle for first place this gen and the Xbox360 will be last.
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Assman, you don't honestly think that casual gamers and non gamers give a **** about physics.
I dont see my girlfriend running off to buy a ps3 because she heard it can generate realistic clothes and water.
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Assman

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Assman, you don't honestly think that casual gamers and non gamers give a **** about physics.
I dont see my girlfriend running off to buy a ps3 because she heard it can generate realistic clothes and water.

Nobody ever mentioned non gamers, so you can throw that argument out. Like I said before. Gamers who are sports fans will enjoy next generation gameplay in games like Madden(once euphoria is implemented). Same goes for fighting fans. They will enjoy realistic movements, and physics, and say "wow. I've never seen that before!" It's a revolutionary technology, and IGN are already excited about it. Again, does it warrant a $600 purchase? No, it doesn't. Big Grin
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Imp

legs of a newborn pony

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Umm how will new physics enhance the game? It's not like we haven't seen HL2 and other current gen games do the same thing.
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Game Guru

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Assman
They will enjoy realistic movements, and physics, and say "wow. I've never seen that before!" It's a revolutionary technology, and IGN are already excited about it. Again, does it warrant a $600 purchase? No, it doesn't.

Well firt off, it's software, so how is it technology? But anyway, I think it's really cool stuff. But I don't think it's going to be used on the 360 at all very much at least for awhile. The 360 seems to be focusing totally on the visual aspect of things. Furthermore, I don't see how a 360 or PS3 game really benefits from such physics. With the current controller, you can't control the character's hand directly when punching, so what's the point? The character would react basically the same every time.

With the Wii on the other hand...You could do such things. The Wii could probably handle a very simple fighting game with these physics. And it'd be cool to throw punches with the nunchuck and Wiimote that way.
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Cody

sup

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How is software not technology?

Game Guru

Golden f*cking Sun!

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Cody
How is software not technology?

It's nothing physical. I guess it depends on what you define technology as. Software is kind of like art, or something to me.
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Keazu

Gallant and Giddy

Posts: 18,247

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Another reason that everyone thinks you're a moron.

Oh and for the record, I love physics. I could spend hours just shooting bots in the head and watch them crumble. Or throw a grenade at people and watch them fly. I just love it.
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rubaiyat

Magikoopa

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Imp
Umm how will new physics enhance the game? It's not like we haven't seen HL2 and other current gen games do the same thing.

Come on now that's no where near true.

They are "realistic" physics cause that's the best we've seen.

There is NO WAY that is the best games engines can provide given sufficent processing power.

There IS a reason Japan and IBM before them invested so damn much in creating huge supercomputer networks.

Not to say we 'll ever get there with gaming. Just saying that we've reached the limit of physics modeling in games is absurd.

EDIT - I mean the simple fact is, all we get are animations...complex ones to be sure, but that's what they are. Now give those people REAL organs and muscles and joints using simple orthopedic material properties, andwe can actually see what happens when "such and such" happens in a game. As mentioned, sports and fighting games are up there. But all games would benefit to some degree. Especially in destructible environments..the one thing I want huge processing power for as I don't have a huge TV needing high resolution models.

Imp

legs of a newborn pony

Posts: 7,978

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k, well i'll keep talking about physics and you go play in the corner with your organs? K, thx.
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Bronx20

FlyGuy

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MS out of theg ame if they dont take number 1? lol....

MS isnt going anywhere.
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¿umop apisdn

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Yeah, he lost me at organs too. But everything UP to that, was pretty intelligent.

Instead of physicis, I want FULLY destructable environments in games. Especially first person shooters!!
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Cody

sup

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Thats kinda part of the whole physics thing...

zBuff

Hothead

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Join Date: Jun 2005

That Euphoria 2.5 video looks really cool. I don't know why you would think it has been faked Game Guru, this is technology done by lucasarts remember, ie ILM, they use this tech in doing their CGI in movies all the time, if they say that's what they've achieved I believe them.

Having a physics/animation engine in place like this is actually inducing simplicity rather than complexity, you no longer have to tweak animation to make it look real, make collision detection, do as much motion capturing, give the illusion of weight, make sure objects do end up at unusual angles(ie limbs and body parts in HL2), emulate resistance and momentum, the list just goes on and on.
They're the most realisitic animations I've ever seen.
I can definitely see the benefits.

Old School Gamer

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PS 3 will be dead in japan by 2008. Write it down.

StarFoxEternity

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Old School Gamer
PS 3 will be dead in japan by 2008. Write it down.

Are you sure you want to make that statement? A little bold, no? I'm Nintendo all the way, but even I wouldn't say that. Maybe 360, but not PS3.

Vaya con Dios...
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zBuff
That Euphoria 2.5 video looks really cool. I don't know why you would think it has been faked Game Guru,

I didn't say that.

StarFoxEternity
Are you sure you want to make that statement? A little bold, no? I'm Nintendo all the way, but even I wouldn't say that. Maybe 360, but not PS3.

Vaya con Dios...

We were pretty bold in predicting the PS3 would cost at least $500 too. If Square jumps ship, or goes multiplatform. The system will be dead by then.
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Game Guru

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StarFoxEternity
Are you sure you want to make that statement? A little bold, no? I'm Nintendo all the way, but even I wouldn't say that. Maybe 360, but not PS3.

Vaya con Dios...

We were pretty bold in predicting the PS3 would cost at least $500 too. If Square jumps ship, or goes multiplatform. The system will be dead by then.
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zelda_freak

Can you read my mind?

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This will be rad if Nintendo recaptures the market share. The last time they did, I was 10-12, and that was like ten years ago.

¿umop apisdn

the 'ring

Posts: 1,176

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Neurburg, Germany

zBuff
That Euphoria 2.5 video looks really cool. I don't know why you would think it has been faked Game Guru, this is technology done by lucasarts remember, ie ILM, they use this tech in doing their CGI in movies all the time, if they say that's what they've achieved I believe them.

Having a physics/animation engine in place like this is actually inducing simplicity rather than complexity, you no longer have to tweak animation to make it look real, make collision detection, do as much motion capturing, give the illusion of weight, make sure objects do end up at unusual angles(ie limbs and body parts in HL2), emulate resistance and momentum, the list just goes on and on.
They're the most realisitic animations I've ever seen.
I can definitely see the benefits.

Yes, it would make development a little easier, but that doesn't change the fact that the general population of gamers won't give a **** or be able to tell the difference. They might go, huh, that's kinda cool, but it won't sway the discision to buy it or not.
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Asmodeus187

Hammer Brother

Posts: 300

Join Date: Nov 2004

Anybody who thinks physics don't enhance gameplay clearly hasn't played half life 2. And this game barely scratches the surface as far as physics are concerned. It's not a "whoa man, did you see that? Totally awesome!" thing, its more the combination of small details that make game worlds more believable. It will be expected as future standard, even though it's not immediately noticable.

But we're so used to the limitations of game worlds that we don't even notice the stupid hacks and blatant mistakes in game physics. Some of the things we've come to accept:

- When two characters bump into each other, nothing happens. They push each other aside, with their feet sliding on the ground.

- Water is always perfectly flat and has a few very gentle disturbances at best. Even at the shore, there are no waves. It doesn't react to objects that are thrown into the water or moving in it.

- Your bazooka shots blow up tanks and huge mechs, but if you shoot a tree, it doesn't even shake.

- The tank you're driving weighs 20 tons but somehow you get blocked by a small wooden branch sticking out of the ground.

- If a character reaches out to grab something, he plays a generic "grab" animation, reaches somewhere in the empty space, a good half meter away from the object, and the object he grabs magically disappears.

These limitations are very glaring, and it's just our dumbed-down expectations that keep us from noticing them. If all such issues are adressed, it isn't a radical change in gameplay, but a massive change in immersion, and that's what it's all about in games, be it a realistic WW2 shooter or linear pokemon japanese rpg.

Knight of Cydonia

The Real Lakitu

Posts: 4,060

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Asmodeus187
Anybody who thinks physics don't enhance gameplay clearly hasn't played half life 2. And this game barely scratches the surface as far as physics are concerned. It's not a "whoa man, did you see that? Totally awesome!" thing, its more the combination of small details that make game worlds more believable. It will be expected as future standard, even though it's not immediately noticable.

But we're so used to the limitations of game worlds that we don't even notice the stupid hacks and blatant mistakes in game physics. Some of the things we've come to accept:

- When two characters bump into each other, nothing happens. They push each other aside, with their feet sliding on the ground.

- Water is always perfectly flat and has a few very gentle disturbances at best. Even at the shore, there are no waves. It doesn't react to objects that are thrown into the water or moving in it.

- Your bazooka shots blow up tanks and huge mechs, but if you shoot a tree, it doesn't even shake.

- The tank you're driving weighs 20 tons but somehow you get blocked by a small wooden branch sticking out of the ground.

- If a character reaches out to grab something, he plays a generic "grab" animation, reaches somewhere in the empty space, a good half meter away from the object, and the object he grabs magically disappears.

These limitations are very glaring, and it's just our dumbed-down expectations that keep us from noticing them. If all such issues are adressed, it isn't a radical change in gameplay, but a massive change in immersion, and that's what it's all about in games, be it a realistic WW2 shooter or linear pokemon japanese rpg.

I definitely agree with you on some of these points, but even given the necessary raw power to calculate also those things, you seem to be forgetting you'll also need to figure out which calculations to use, meaning it's going to take a hell of a lot of time to develop those games that can interact with all those things, and then where do you draw the line?
You may want to use your bazooka to destroy trees instead of mechs (not that I approve of it, show some kindness towards nature), but what if I want to use my box of matches to simply torch that same tree or why not the whole city in which the entire game is also taking place (yeah I can be quite the pyromaniac sometimes), should that be possible? will they program that in too? My point being that in real life the possibilities are almost infinite, given a set of laws of nature, but no current hard- or software combination will be able to take each and everyone of them into account, there will always be some doors that you won't be able to open, or invisible force fields at the edge of the game's world that you won't be able to break through, no matter how much you expand it, there will always be a point upon which some player will stumble upon it... sure it may be more fun to have a bigger and better world, but up to what price? I don't exactly feel compelled to pay €600 for a console and €70 for a game (yes, I'm referring to the P$3) so that I can bump into another character with an amazing amount of realism, since I can do that perfectly fine in the real world (even on purpose Tongue If I wanted to)...

For me a console is still much more about escapism from the "real" world, so I don't exactly expect to find an exact and perfect copy of the real world in the games I play on it... rather than a fun experience, or experiencing an amazing story line, granted that amazing graphics and/or physics may add to that experience, they are not defining...
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Old School Gamer

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StarFoxEternity
Are you sure you want to make that statement? A little bold, no? I'm Nintendo all the way, but even I wouldn't say that. Maybe 360, but not PS3.

Vaya con Dios...

The 360 is already dead in Japan. No prediction needed.

Assman

CTU agent

Posts: 8,945

Join Date: Jun 2004

Well firt off, it's software, so how is it technology? But anyway,

http://www.indianajones.com/videogames/news/news20060427.html

Ahem.

hat Euphoria 2.5 video looks really cool. I don't know why you would think it has been faked Game Guru, this is technology done by lucasarts remember, ie ILM, they use this tech in doing their CGI in movies all the time, if they say that's what they've achieved I believe them.

Having a physics/animation engine in place like this is actually inducing simplicity rather than complexity, you no longer have to tweak animation to make it look real, make collision detection, do as much motion capturing, give the illusion of weight, make sure objects do end up at unusual angles(ie limbs and body parts in HL2), emulate resistance and momentum, the list just goes on and on.
They're the most realisitic animations I've ever seen.
I can definitely see the benefits.

An excellent and articulate reply. Cookie for you.
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Assman

CTU agent

Posts: 8,945

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EDIT - I mean the simple fact is, all we get are animations...complex ones to be sure, but that's what they are. Now give those people REAL organs and muscles and joints using simple orthopedic material properties, andwe can actually see what happens when "such and such" happens in a game. As mentioned, sports and fighting games are up there. But all games would benefit to some degree. Especially in destructible environments..the one thing I want huge processing power for as I don't have a huge TV needing high resolution models.

Another excellent post. You kind of lost me at organs, but I know what you're trying to say. He's basically describing how realistic euphoria....at least I hope he is. =P

Anybody who thinks physics don't enhance gameplay clearly hasn't played half life 2. And this game barely scratches the surface as far as physics are concerned. It's not a "whoa man, did you see that? Totally awesome!" thing, its more the combination of small details that make game worlds more believable. It will be expected as future standard, even though it's not immediately noticable.

But we're so used to the limitations of game worlds that we don't even notice the stupid hacks and blatant mistakes in game physics. Some of the things we've come to accept:

- When two characters bump into each other, nothing happens. They push each other aside, with their feet sliding on the ground.

- Water is always perfectly flat and has a few very gentle disturbances at best. Even at the shore, there are no waves. It doesn't react to objects that are thrown into the water or moving in it.

- Your bazooka shots blow up tanks and huge mechs, but if you shoot a tree, it doesn't even shake.

- The tank you're driving weighs 20 tons but somehow you get blocked by a small wooden branch sticking out of the ground.

- If a character reaches out to grab something, he plays a generic "grab" animation, reaches somewhere in the empty space, a good half meter away from the object, and the object he grabs magically disappears.

These limitations are very glaring, and it's just our dumbed-down expectations that keep us from noticing them. If all such issues are adressed, it isn't a radical change in gameplay, but a massive change in immersion, and that's what it's all about in games, be it a realistic WW2 shooter or linear pokemon japanese rpg.

Great post! It seems like there are people who actually KNOW their stuff instead of making lazy assumptions(ahem)! Cookie for you!

With the current controller, you can't control the character's hand directly when punching, so what's the point? The character would react basically the same every time.

Well, controlling your character, yeah, but depending on how you punch/kick your enemy could change the way how enemies react, and there won't be a set animation.

P.S. Thanks for your contribution to this thread, Keazu. You're a real winner.
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