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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
XaviusSabor de Soledad
Posts: 32,290 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NM |
Vatican says Crusades "not so bad" and no apologies are needed Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' CrusadesFrom Richard Owen in Rome THE Vatican has begun moves to rehabilitate the Crusaders by sponsoring a conference at the weekend that portrays the Crusades as wars fought with the "noble aim" of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity. The Crusades are seen by many Muslims as acts of violence that have underpinned Western aggression towards the Arab world ever since. Followers of Osama bin Laden claim to be taking part in a latter-day "jihad against the Jews and Crusaders". The late Pope John Paul II sought to achieve Muslim- Christian reconciliation by asking "pardon" for the Crusades during the 2000 Millennium celebrations. But John Paul's apologies for the past "errors of the Church" — including the Inquisition and anti-Semitism — irritated some Vatican conservatives. According to Vatican insiders, the dissenters included Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI. Pope Benedict reached out to Muslims and Jews after his election and called for dialogue. However, the Pope, who is due to visit Turkey in November, has in the past suggested that Turkey's Muslim culture is at variance with Europe's Christian roots. At the conference, held at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University, Roberto De Mattei, an Italian historian, recalled that the Crusades were "a response to the Muslim invasion of Christian lands and the Muslim devastation of the Holy Places". "The debate has been reopened," La Stampa said. Professor De Mattei noted that the desecration of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem by Muslim forces in 1009 had helped to provoke the First Crusade at the end of the 11th century, called by Pope Urban II. He said that the Crusaders were "martyrs" who had "sacrificed their lives for the faith". He was backed by Jonathan Riley-Smith, Dixie Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Cambridge University, who said that those who sought forgiveness for the Crusades "do not know their history". Professor Riley-Smith has attacked Sir Ridley Scott's recent film Kingdom of Heaven, starring Orlando Bloom, as "utter nonsense". Professor Riley-Smith said that the script, like much writing on the Crusades, was "historically inaccurate. It depicts the Muslims as civilised and the Crusaders as barbarians. It has nothing to do with reality." It fuels Islamic fundamentalism by propagating "Osama bin Laden's version of history". He said that the Crusaders were sometimes undisciplined and capable of acts of great cruelty. But the same was true of Muslims and of troops in "all ideological wars". Some of the Crusaders' worst excesses were against Orthodox Christians or heretics — as in the sack of Constantinople in 1204. The American writer Robert Spencer, author of A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, told the conference that the mistaken view had taken hold in the West as well as the Arab world that the Crusades were "an unprovoked attack by Europe on the Islamic world". In reality, however, Christians had been persecuted after the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem. CONFLICT OVER THE HOLY LAND Historians count eight Crusades, although dates are disputed: 1095-1101, called by Pope Urban II; 1145-47, led by Louis VII; 1188-92, led by Richard I; 1204, which included the sack of Constantinople; 1217, which included the conquest of Damietta; 1228-29 led by Frederick II; 1249-52, led by King Louis IX of France; and 1270, also under Louis IX Until the early 11th century, Christians, Jews and Muslims coexisted under Muslim rule in the Holy Land. After growing friction, the first Crusade was sparked by ambushes of Christian pilgrims going to Jerusalem. The Byzantine Emperor Alexius appealed to Pope Urban II, who in 1095 called on Christendom to take up arms to free the Holy Land from the "Muslim infidel" http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2093921,00.html ++++++ What do history buffs here have to say about it? ___________________  I was young and confused and your mom didn't want me around no more. Now pass me dem damn collard greens! |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
mechagoukiOmnipresent Malevolence
Posts: 1,061 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Everywhere that evil lurks...... |
When the crusaders couldn't find any Muslims, Jews or, well actually, anyone who got in their way to rape, they used to **** each other. Welll that's what I heard..... ___________________  "Kick out the jams, motherfuckers!" |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
MrSnugglesBanned
Posts: 8,229 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Land of the free, home of the brave |
as soon as islam apologizes for invading europe and subjugating spain, then and only then should anybody apologize for the crusades. ___________________ JFK: Ich bin ein Berliner BHO: Ich bin ein beginner |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
mechagoukiOmnipresent Malevolence
Posts: 1,061 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Everywhere that evil lurks...... |
Who gives a fuck anyway? ___________________ "Kick out the jams, motherfuckers!" |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
IrisHighly, I say
Posts: 5,103 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ireland |
I really don't see why anyone living today should be apologizing for something that happened hundreds of years ago.
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
comatoseManic mouser ^_^
Posts: 1,940 Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Bombing your nightmares. |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
IrisHighly, I say
Posts: 5,103 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ireland |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
kinopioPunk's Not Dead
Posts: 14,644 Join Date: Nov 2002 |
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Do you have any idea of what you're talking about?| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
comatoseManic mouser ^_^
Posts: 1,940 Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Bombing your nightmares. |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
GorosaurusUkiki
Posts: 964 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pennsyltucky |
Yeah, what's been said here; there is no need for apology. For one, no one still lives who had any part of any of these actions - even putting down actions of the distant past isn't something I consider honorable. At that point it is just words, and has nothing to do with actual pardoning or forgiveness; it's just using the past for some personal gain in one form or another. Furthermore, the idea of the Crusaders being the 'bad guys' during that period is as disgusting a distortion of views as considering all heathens today 'bad guys.' I have read enough into these events that the Crusades do seem to be more of a defensive action, while Muslim expansion across Africa and through Europe (Even touching into the Alps) are obviously expansionist and were deliberately fashioned to disrupt European trade. The Byzantines before them were similar in size, but not in motive. The Romans had historically been fairly lenient invaders. So yes, I think it would be fair to call the Crusades a reaction, and not a wholly deliberate massacre. To sum up, there is no need for Christianity to be the forced apoligizer, although it wouldn't be a bad thing - very inkeeping with their beliefs, and also, the warranty on heartfelt apologizes and repentance is long over. Find a better, more relevant mean of diplomacy, Vatican. |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
Caster13Meow =^_^=
Posts: 4,808 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
Knight of CydoniaThe Real Lakitu
Posts: 4,060 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Belgium |
Well, like most of the time, religion is but a mere excuse for war, even the crusades weren't just about saving the "Holy Land" from "infidels", they were just as much about conquering more land and riches... Compare it to the Iraq-thing, it may have been a pre-emptive strike to protect America from those dangerous Iraqi WMD's or to bring freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people and trial Saddam for his warcrime's, but at the same time, American and allied enterprises are making profit be it from the Iraqi oil, or from the "rebuilding" of Iraq... ___________________
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
MrSnugglesBanned
Posts: 8,229 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Land of the free, home of the brave |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
Robjomakstill going strong
Posts: 8,019 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Philadelphia |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
unkwonMiss Round and Plump!
Posts: 5,145 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Texas |
The thing was while the crusades were sad society benifited from it as whole, sure many of lives here lost there, but think about what we have gained with knowalge technology and also gave us all a opened mind in general. ___________________ Now if only I could change to Mr Fat instead of Miss round and plump. |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
IrisHighly, I say
Posts: 5,103 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ireland |
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| NerdWednesday, March 22nd 2006. | |
Pandas_UNITEPositive Panda
Posts: 18,424 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: I live in your heart ;) |
wait...so kingdom of heaven actually happened? ___________________ 
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| NerdThursday, March 23rd 2006. | |
LastAllianceTrollin' since 2003
Posts: 12,490 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Klamath Falls, OR |
yes. yes it did pandas |
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| NerdThursday, March 23rd 2006. | |
Caster13Meow =^_^=
Posts: 4,808 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada |
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| NerdThursday, March 23rd 2006. | |
RansacKPompon Flower
Posts: 385 Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Red Sox Nation |
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| NerdThursday, March 23rd 2006. | |
DarknessGPThe Darkness Spreads
Posts: 1,738 Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: My House |
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| NerdThursday, March 23rd 2006. | |
Drunken SaviorJeffersonian
Posts: 5,163 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Coast |
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| NerdThursday, March 23rd 2006. | |
Caster13Meow =^_^=
Posts: 4,808 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada |
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| NerdFriday, March 24th 2006. | |
comatoseManic mouser ^_^
Posts: 1,940 Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Bombing your nightmares. |
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| NerdFriday, March 24th 2006. | |
Caster13Meow =^_^=
Posts: 4,808 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada |
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| NerdFriday, March 24th 2006. | |
BatistGod
Posts: 36,070 Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sainte Maxime |
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| NerdFriday, March 24th 2006. | |
Robjomakstill going strong
Posts: 8,019 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Philadelphia |
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| NerdFriday, March 24th 2006. | |
Caster13Meow =^_^=
Posts: 4,808 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada |
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| NerdFriday, March 24th 2006. | |
DarknessGPThe Darkness Spreads
Posts: 1,738 Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: My House |
The main Crusades happened in the 11th to 13th century. comatose, I said the earlier crusades were for retaking holy lands and whatnot, and the later ones (i.e. 13th century) were just pillaging and raping. And that people clump all the crusades together and just say everyone was bad. Which is not true. It's like clumping all american soldiers together and saying they are bad because of that prison thing awhile back. The battles of Tours is not considered part of "The Crusades". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades ___________________ See what I Digg at http://www.digg.com/users/DarknessGP |
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| NerdFriday, March 24th 2006. | |
Drunken SaviorJeffersonian
Posts: 5,163 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Coast |
Looking back in history, I think killing in the name of religion shows how, dispite all our amazing achievements and brainpower, how illogical humans really can be. |
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| NerdFriday, March 24th 2006. | |
Caster13Meow =^_^=
Posts: 4,808 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada |
Yeah, we have this amazing ability to take perfectly decent and good things and do completely idiotic things with them. ___________________ "I have captured the enemy for meat testing! Praise me! PRAISE ME!!!" -GIR Wi-Fi ID: 1627 8934 4983 8539 |
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