Nerd Mentality

TendoGamer

I've lost count of how many shirts you've ruined over the past six years with that tic of yours.

TendoGamer

I've lost count of how many shirts you've ruined over the past six years with that tic of yours.

DeathDaddy

It does take skill (or quick fingers, at any rate) to snake, I do admit. But the way I see it, if snaking didn't exist in Mario Kart DS, the playing field would be entirely even for every person coming onto the scene. There wouldn't be a convenient exploit that people could take advantage of to dust those who didn't know about the tactic.

Which is why Mario Kart 64 will always remain as the best Mario Kart game of all time, there was no cheap exploits or stat advantages between cars, everyone was on an even playing field. That might piss off perfectionists and all, but at the same time it really demanded the best from everyone.

Rocksteady

Well I know how it works and all, but is there an easy way to shorten your span of jump? I mean when I jump to try and start a power slide on a straight away before I can even pull it off I'm literally perpindicular to the other side of the road.

Any tips?

If you want to snake, what I suggest that you do is move your kart towards one side or another of the road so that when you jump, you should slide towards the other. Ideally, that will give you enough room to pull of the first boost, which will send you straight and help negate some of the slide when you move back the other way.

Probably the best place to practice snaking is Figure-8 Circuit, just to get the hang of it in general, the move to incrementally more narrow roads to improve your finesse. Just in case you ever need to utilize the tactic in a match, of course.
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TendoGamer

I've lost count of how many shirts you've ruined over the past six years with that tic of yours.

Rocksteady

Which is why Mario Kart 64 will always remain as the best Mario Kart game of all time, there was no cheap exploits or stat advantages between cars, everyone was on an even playing field. That might piss off perfectionists and all, but at the same time it really demanded the best from everyone.

To be honest with you, I'm going to have to give Mario Kart DS the nod as the premiere title in the illustrious Mario Kart franchise. I'm very disappointed that this technique is available in online competitions, yes, but if you're playing single-player or with friends you know, you might just be able to trust everyone enough that they'll play without relying on snaking.

The new tracks are excellent, it includes some of the nostalgic arenas from past installments and the mechanics of the game are very crisp which, in my opinion, elevates it towards the top of the list. Since I can play with people I know across the country and across the globe, it is further lifted to the number one spot. Hopefully Nintendo keeps it up and continually raises the bar with each entry--preferably without the snaking. But this line of conversation is for another thread, I'm sure.
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TendoGamer

I've lost count of how many shirts you've ruined over the past six years with that tic of yours.

comatose

I'm against it only because it shortens the life of my d-pad. But really, it does take some skill, and it's no worse than saving a blueshell till the end of a race.

I hate those bastards! I think snaking's fair. That made me the king in double dash. If everyone practiced at it, they'll get better at it. Nintendo themselves taught me the technique at Baby Park. It lets you go super-fast!
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DeathDaddy

The new tracks are excellent, it includes some of the nostalgic arenas from past installments and the mechanics of the game are very crisp which, in my opinion, elevates it towards the top of the list. Since I can play with people I know across the country and across the globe, it is further lifted to the number one spot. Hopefully Nintendo keeps it up and continually raises the bar with each entry--preferably without the snaking. But this line of conversation is for another thread, I'm sure.

It's not so much about the snaking I hate, but rather that characters and karts have differentiated themselves from eachother to a point where you chose the best rather then favorites. I loved the SNES and N64 versions because I could go with Peach because she's my favorite, but when Double Dash!! hit her special move blew, and now in the DS version she has crappy power sliding.

The retro tracks are nice and all, but still they chose some really ****ty ones, so they do nothing for me. The DS verions only memorable track is Waluigi's Pinball course. Outside of that nothing is that entirely new or great in my eyes, R.O.B is a cool edition I suppose... eh, whatever you'll be able to read my review on the site within a day or two.

#1gohan

I think snaking's fair. That made me the king in double dash. If everyone practiced at it, they'll get better at it.

The problem is, no one teaches you the technique in the single-player mode in Mario Kart DS so it will leave people entirely out of the loop. If a newcomer wanted to play online, suddenly everyone else zooms away and, unless he pulls out binoculars and says, "Hmm, they all seem to be hopping in a snake-like way! Maybe I should try it!" he won't key in on the tactic.

It's like using steroids: it's a little enhancer that makes a big difference in performance and can skew the numbers. Maybe baseball would be more even if every athlete used steroids, but... it's still warping the overall contest.

The reasons that I can't slam the door shut on the snaking issue is because (1) one of the Staff Ghosts did it in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!, even though no one shows you in Mario Kart DS and (2) even if there was a consensus that said "snaking is unfair," it wouldn't right the ship in the online competition so it'd eventually be a moot point.

Oh, and the other reason I responded: your signature is too long and too tall.
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TendoGamer

I've lost count of how many shirts you've ruined over the past six years with that tic of yours.

Rocksteady

It's not so much about the snaking I hate, but rather that characters and karts have differentiated themselves from eachother to a point where you chose the best rather then favorites. I loved the SNES and N64 versions because I could go with Peach because she's my favorite, but when Double Dash!! hit her special move blew, and now in the DS version she has crappy power sliding.

The retro tracks are nice and all, but still they chose some really ****ty ones, so they do nothing for me. The DS verions only memorable track is Waluigi's Pinball course. Outside of that nothing is that entirely new or great in my eyes, R.O.B is a cool edition I suppose... eh, whatever you'll be able to read my review on the site within a day or two.

I can agree with you on one point: the difference in the karts will make people consistently pick the same vehicle. However, there aren't too many differences in the actual characters, aside from weight class--a factor that's been involved in every Mario Kart installment ever since the original. Bowser and Donkey Kong always started off slow, but had the best top speed while Peach and Yoshi would have great acceleration and a low top speed. That's retained in this entry, but now people can choose which kart they want to ride, each with a different handling. Like I said, some karts will likely be neglected because they're simply not as high-powered as others, and that's unfortunate, but that doesn't force you to use characters you don't want to. At it's core, the difference between racing characters has remained relatively intact throughout the entire series, aside from the special items in Double Dash (even though it was kinda neat when the computer used it in the original).

While I generally disagree with you about the tracks as well, I still don't think that's a topic to discuss in this thread anyway--we should keep this one about snaking.
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TendoGamer

I've lost count of how many shirts you've ruined over the past six years with that tic of yours.

DeathDaddy

With snaking possible, the playing field is uneven. Not everyone will know what snaking is and that leaves some people out of the loop and, in some cases, therefore out of the competition.

A game that puts everybody at the same level is no fun at all; there should be some way to improve. Otherwise, you might as well just take turns rolling dice and see whose is highest.

DeathDaddy

Perhaps that's just me... it's like steroids, masking raw ability and skill!

I don't get the steroid comment at all. How does it mask anything? It's just another technique - like a runner finding a better way to swing their arms or something.

DeathDaddy

There wouldn't be a convenient exploit that people could take advantage of to dust those who didn't know about the tactic.

Why is snaking an exploit? What criticism can you level at snaking that you can't at super-starts or powersliding?

ickle

But using the snaking technique online while other players may not know it is unsportmanship in my opion. it does give the player that does not know the snaking technique a competative disadvantage.

Is it "unsportsmanship" when pitchers throw curveballs too?
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matthew

A game that puts everybody at the same level is no fun at all; there should be some way to improve. Otherwise, you might as well just take turns rolling dice and see whose is highest.

Uh, wrong, if the playing field opens up with everyone at the same place, it means that raw talent and execution of good mechanics will separate one player from the rest. Familiarity with the map shows experience, along with making sharp powerturns and performing the well-known powerslide boosts. Everyone would know how they could improve and there is no imbalance or original disadvantage that will tip things in favor towards someone who was doing homework outside of the actual in-game experience. It seems that you misunderstand what it means to say "even the playing field" -- it doesn't mean that everyone moves at the same speed and gets the same items, which might justify the ridiculous claim that it would be as "random as rolling a die," it means that people can improve and learn based on what is presented in the game. Snaking? Not something that you can pick up on by simply playing Mario Kart DS.

The reason that I compare the tactic to steroids is because steroids causes a big distortion in the numbers. If you look at someone who snaked at times during their race but didn't make good decisions on when to take a turn and you look at the times of someone who has great mechanics and powersliding savvy, then you make a comparison? The times may look even, but one's numbers are a bit inflated. It doesn't show that he was taking sharp turns, looking for the fastest route. That's how it warps, to an extent, the overall data.

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Like I said, if there was a Staff Ghost in this game that used the technique, I'd have no qualms at all because people could figure everything out in-game. Because that is absent, I'm sympathizing with newcomers who would become frustrated by being dusted time and time again simply because they didn't research the game as well as others had. Personally, I can snake, but I don't like doing it. Last night, I entered a match with three other people, two of whom employed the tactic late in the final lap in Delfino Plaza to push one of them in 1st place (the other was behind me). So in the final three matches, I employed the same technique and destroyed the fools--but didn't feel proud using that strategy, as happy as I was to have crushed them so mercilessly. In this instance, they were nearly able to drop me to third place in the first race because I didn't realize that they intended to snake. It's much more satisfying to win a race and know, "My mechanics are great, I was cutting it close along the edge with that slide," than to think, "Good thing I know how to powerslide... too bad COOL came in last place because he didn't know enough."

In the end, it doesn't matter. Whether we decided that snaking did provide those who did their homework an advantage over others or not, it's a moot point seeing as how it's still an option for whoever wants to take it online.
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TendoGamer

I've lost count of how many shirts you've ruined over the past six years with that tic of yours.

Rocksteady

It's not so much about the snaking I hate, but rather that characters and karts have differentiated themselves from eachother to a point where you chose the best rather then favorites. I loved the SNES and N64 versions because I could go with Peach because she's my favorite, but when Double Dash!! hit her special move blew, and now in the DS version she has crappy power sliding.

Well, whence you beat 150cc mirror, you an choose any cart on any player, so you can sport your fave character and the best cart for the job.

DeathDaddy

The problem is, no one teaches you the technique in the single-player mode in Mario Kart DS so it will leave people entirely out of the loop. If a newcomer wanted to play online, suddenly everyone else zooms away and, unless he pulls out binoculars and says, "Hmm, they all seem to be hopping in a snake-like way! Maybe I should try it!" he won't key in on the tactic.

Some of the missions practically force you to learn it(3-8 iirc certainly does).
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MetroidHunter

I don't have the game yet, but just how popular is snaking? If I were to get in a normal race would everyone else be snaking?

If I were racing with friends I'd try to set up rules to whether or not it would be allowed.

I'd say 10-15% rate of use on online games, but it may go up once people are more used to the game.
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comatose

Some of the missions practically force you to learn it(3-8 iirc certainly does).

Mission 3-8 hardly requires as little as a powerslide. As a matter of fact, I decided that I'd put it to the test and I played the entire Mission without hopping or powersliding at all, instead applying simple brakes and releasing the gas as I went, and I managed to get two-stars. You definitely don't need powersliding to beat that mission, much less snaking.

gradualmeltdown

I cant see how snaking is any different than combo's in Street Fighter 2 the World Warrior. There was no info or official statement of combo's in Street Fighter,but did I whine when someone busted a 2 in 1 Dragon punch combo? No!!! I learned how and beat him down. Games are about skill and technnique. As with any other power move snaking also is a risk,if you mess up a staightaway your race could be over.

If you are avid enough to find and master a tech than you are BETTER than others who have not. Sometimes life isnt fair, man up.

I wish you cited a game that was more relevant or at least provided a better demonstration of what you were thinking. If you're talking about the Dragon Punch which, if used up close, would hit the opponent more than one time, that was incidental--similar to how E. Honda had the one kick that registered three hits and would take a huge chunk out of the lifebar. It wasn't some new depth added to the game.

And, by the way, telling someone to "man up" about Mario Kart, especially when I'm 107-2 online as it is, playing against those who snake and those who don't both, is probably the single most ridiculous statement I've ever read. /:{

matthew

What difference does it make whether it's used by a CPU controlled car? Sure, you can see them doing superstarts and powerslides but that doesn't give you any idea that you could do it by pushing the gas at the end of the 2 count or hitting left and right in quick succession while drifting.

Open up your manual, look to see if it mentions powersliding. Read as it tells you how to execute a a powerslide boost. Then flip ahead to see if they mention the boost you can get by pressing the gas during the countdown. Observe how they suggest pressing the button at a certain time in order to trigger this move. In other words, yes, they do "give you [an] idea that you can do it by pushing the gas at the end of the 2 second count [and] hitting left and right in quick succesion while drifting."

matthew

It doesn't make sense to claim that, if the game doesn't show you a technique, the technique isn't fair. The game shouldn't have to hold your hand and show you every strategy. And, honestly, snaking is more a strategy than a technique, isn't it? It's just a way of applying a technique that we already know (powersliding).

What my claim is, or what the poll is designed to ask, whether or not snaking, a technique never mentioned in the manual or demonstrated by any Staff Ghost or CPU opponent, puts players at a disadvantage because they never researched Mario Kart DS online and, if that is the case, do you consider that taking away from the spirit of healthy competition. The reason that I'm not entirely adamant when it comes to snaking is because the tactic was employed by a Staff Ghost in Mario Kart: Double Dash.

It's not really much of a strategy anyway... it's a sure way to take time off of your laps, but there is absolutely no consequences. Even if you're mediocre when it comes to snaking, failure to execute things smoothly will still keep you at the same pace as someone who elected to not use the technique anyway. Strategies have advantages and disadvantages; exploits have only advantages.

Good Doctor

So why exactly can't these "newcomers" who get their asses chapped by snaking not just look up Mario Kart DS on the internet, or maybe check GameFAQs or some kind of board (like this one) and find out what the deal is?

If they're playing online, there's a pretty good chance that they know what the internet is.

They can. But there's a bit of a problem when the only way you can hope to compete is to research the latest tricks. Ideally, people should be able to polish themselves and improve their abilities simply playing the game in single-player mode, but in this case, that's not unlikely. Hence my understanding and sympathizing with their initial disadvantage.

But this time, I'll reiterate and hope that people will acknowledge this final statement: snaking originally debuted in Mario Kart: Double Dash!! when a Staff Ghost demonstrated and exploited the tactic in the arena Baby Park. By virtue of the fact that one of Nintendo's workers used this technique, there's a lot of credibility for it being perfectly legitimate. What I wish is that there would have been an available demonstration in Mario Kart DS as well, a game that goes online and pits players against one another, so that newcomers would have been able to learn and improve their abilities offline. Ideally, players can improve their skills offline without having to research tricks in order to compete, and with the inclusion of someone snaking in the single-player mode, that would be retained. I don't personally have a problem with snaking--I can snake very well and will if my opponent decides to--but I can understand how someone would be frustrated when they pick the title up and cannot hope to compete. Regardless, snaking is an option available to players online and so it doesn't really matter whether people like it or not. This poll was simply designed to measure whether or not others embraced or frowned upon this tactic.
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TendoGamer

I've lost count of how many shirts you've ruined over the past six years with that tic of yours.

Rocksteady

I don't understand, why don't you come to the gaming forums more often, Death Daddy?

I don't make that many posts as it is. Lately, I have been checking out the Gaming Forums more often than previously so the few posts I make are spread out fairly evenly.
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TendoGamer

I've lost count of how many shirts you've ruined over the past six years with that tic of yours.

matthew

I do think there are disadvantages to being a crappy snaker. I've crashed into enough walls to find that out. But this time I'm not going to go on so long. I'm simply going to ask why the technique must be included in the manual / done by a ghost / etc. What really makes powersliding different than snaking? The repetition? If the player knows that powerslides give a boost, then they have all the tools they need to discover snaking on their own. In the simplest terms, this is why I don't understand how somebody can approve of powersliding but not snaking.

Because powersliding and the turbo-start are both mentioned in the manual and executed by the Staff Ghosts and CPU opponents, anyone who picks up the game can learn how without having to do anything special; everything you need to know is taught with what you buy, right out of the box. Players can improve on these techniques by playing offline without having to research online. It provides every player who picks up the game the same oppurtunity to learn those existing techniques.

The reason that snaking takes away from that ideal environment is because a player who picks up the game will not be provided that same oppurtunity without going online and researching it. It's feasible, however unlikely, that someone could simply try it out on their own, but without any hint of the technique, it will place some at a disadvantage. That's why I'm reluctant to give any thumbs up for snaking.

And you'd have to be a haywire snaker to go crashing into walls--unless you try snaking in very difficult stages, in which case I suggest aborting with a hop rather than crashing.
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TendoGamer

I've lost count of how many shirts you've ruined over the past six years with that tic of yours.

A-korn

They just exploit the powersliding method, or at least in my opinion it does, but i cant do it very well.

Exactly right. The manual gives you all the info. Just like repeated rolling in OoT. The game teaches you to roll. You figure out that you can do it constantly to go faster.
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1day

Well, the original Mario Kart manual says you can't jump over banana peels etc. but I've managed do both that and shells. What do you say to that?

I say that doesn't relate to anything going on in this thread, except that it involves a Mario Kart manual.

1day

And, I'm pretty sure they've taken out the ability to brake and save yourself after hitting a peel or slick too. (and is it even possible to outrun a red shell anymore?)

Anyway, the manual explains (and the game as well) how to powerslide boost and "snaking" is simply applying it to a different situation; a technique is explained in a game and a person chooses to experiment using it in alternate situations...this is wrong to you?

It seems that some users have the uncanny ability to not read what I'm saying. What I've said is that the snaking technique steals something from the ideal environment of a perfectly healthy competition because some people will have an advantage if they research special tricks online, thus I sympathize with the frustration that players may have entering some contests.

matthew

Exactly right. The manual gives you all the info. Just like repeated rolling in OoT. The game teaches you to roll. You figure out that you can do it constantly to go faster.

You're again citing how you can move faster in Zelda: Ocarina of Time by continually rolling but again disregard a base difference in these two genres: it doesn't matter how quickly you go through Zelda, it's an adventure game involving slashing your enemies. Whether or not you make it to the Underwater Temple from Hyrule Field in one minute instead of three doesn't change a thing. Mario Kart is all about who finishes first, so exploiting a method some people don't know about in order to move faster does affect the end result, does affect the experience.

Again, I advise everyone reads the re-re-re-clarified point of this thread. I understand that snaking exists, I have no personal problem with it, but it doesn't help contribute to an ideal environment of balanced competition, thus I can understand a newcomer's frustration in an online match-up.
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TendoGamer

I've lost count of how many shirts you've ruined over the past six years with that tic of yours.

DeathDaddy

Mission 3-8 hardly requires as little as a powerslide. As a matter of fact, I decided that I'd put it to the test and I played the entire Mission without hopping or powersliding at all, instead applying simple brakes and releasing the gas as I went, and I managed to get two-stars. You definitely don't need powersliding to beat that mission, much less snaking.

Sorry, meant 3-7. But still after recently playing it, you don't NEED to snake, powersliding on just the corners seems adequate. Still, imho it does encourage slide experimentation enough that most people would try out something like snaking on it. This is the mission that requires 10 powerslides in one lap to beat.
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